Curse

Ate of DK · Oct 14, 2008, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Yesterday I experienced a new level of madness in the RA.

I started the timer and see I get matched up with a guildmate who started in another district. We weren't on TS/Vent/Whatever and not aware that we both started at the same time.

We win 2 matches and at the start of the 3rd match the opponent starts to write in all-chat:

"Resign or be reported, syncers!"

Do I now have to fear my account gets banned for something I have no control over?

Anet, please remove gladiator points from the Random Arena.
Turn this place into a test-arena again where you gain nothing but balthasar faction for winning without idiots who accuse you of laming/syncing/whatever.

I just want to have fun and play a few matches!

Raul the Rampant · Oct 14, 2008, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

Two people is much much better than 4 people.

What probability should there be for all 4 to be on the same team so that it is a random arena? Does that fit with the probability created by synching?

Well I said 2 in my example there, but the words 'or more' should have been implied. Teams aren't composed of only 2 people, and syncing 2 or 3 is easier than syncing 4.

I'm not sure what exactly the question you're asking is supposed to mean, so maybe this isn't what you're after, but the probability of two people being on the same team should be the same as the probability of them not being on the same team in a random instance. Extrapolate that out to 4 people and the probability of them being on the same team should decrease exponentially as probability of them not being on the same one increases by the same factor. Of course this is assuming there's a fairly full district of people to choose from (which isn't the area syncers target), as fenix pointed out. Forcing everyone into a single district would probably be the best solution, though I'd imagine some steps would have to be taken to counteract lag issues.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ate of DK

We win 2 matches and at the start of the 3rd match the opponent starts to write in all-chat:

"Resign or be reported, syncers!"

Do I now have to fear my account gets banned for something I have no control over?

No different than threatening to report someone for having a build you don't like or dying too fast. Syncing is not a reportable offense and whoever said that would just be wasting their own and anet's time if they tried.

Also, on a side note, am I the only one who finds it ironic when those threads pop up complaining that the quality of discussion on these boards is plummeting? Whenever something does provoke some semblance of a decent sort of discussion it gets flamed as "srs bsns" and even the mods start trolling it...

elk · Oct 14, 2008, 04:58 PM // 16:58

It's too bad people appear to be so heated over something like this. I'm sure there are folks that try to "farm" points but I'd imagine more are doing it for the sheer lawls. Considering the age of the game now, I tend to only hook up with the odd guildie here and there (folks just aren't on including myself). When we do hook up, we often want to do something together and most PvE aspects have gotten old. Since we're not out to actually compete or be serious, Ra often becomes the choice (with Aspen being the only other typical suggestion/exception. TA/ AB often has a more competitive nature and seems to focus more on the "points farming" not to mention that you actually need to form a team). Generally it's BYOB (or joke theme) and go in to hang out and have a laugh. If we earn a glad point here and there, great. If we get rick-rolled, that's fine too. Just reading through several of the posts in this thread, it floors me how serious people are taking this. I could see discussing something as an "exploit" (and no I'm not looking to discuss symatics of what an exploit is or how the developers intended things to work etc) from a competitive stand point in relation to other formats like GvG but if you can't go into Ra with some sort of humility and an expection to lose/re-enter; regardless of circumstance, than you may want to be looking at a different (more competitive?) aspect of the game.

elk

Numa Pompilius · Oct 14, 2008, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ate of DK

"Resign or be reported, syncers!"

Do I now have to fear my account gets banned for something I have no control over?

Let him report, you're in no risk of ban.

At present ANet don't believe synching exists, much less is a problem, and least of all a bannable offense.

I think everyone here agrees it exists, so the discussion is on whether synching is a problem and if it requires fixing.

ele pl · Oct 14, 2008, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Today i had several situations, when from international dis i started to play RA, got 9 wins (3 times, one time 4) and we got owned by team of 2-3 sync players. Its not a joke, i got rid of RA like that. Anet must know that syncing is a serious problem that needs fixing immeditianely.

jaximus · Oct 14, 2008, 06:13 PM // 18:13

if you take the reward of glad points out of ra, then ta becomes the same as ha with rank descrimination and such. someone mentioned that all that you need to do is take away the timer from view. that would help a bit. best i can tell the team order goes team a fills in order of entry and then team b. a simple alternation in the entrance sequence would relieve the issue. team a player 1-> team b player 1. so then people that hit enter + cancel + reenter at the same time would go opposite teams with the alternation. im not so good at the computer programming stuff but i dont see that being too difficult. best way to fight syncing would be to have them face each other right?

pumpkin pie · Oct 14, 2008, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by elk

It's too bad people appear to be so heated over something like this. I'm sure there are folks that try to "farm" points but I'd imagine more are doing it for the sheer lawls. Considering the age of the game now, I tend to only hook up with the odd guildie here and there (folks just aren't on including myself). When we do hook up, we often want to do something together and most PvE aspects have gotten old. Since we're not out to actually compete or be serious, Ra often becomes the choice (with Aspen being the only other typical suggestion/exception. TA/ AB often has a more competitive nature and seems to focus more on the "points farming" not to mention that you actually need to form a team). Generally it's BYOB (or joke theme) and go in to hang out and have a laugh. If we earn a glad point here and there, great. If we get rick-rolled, that's fine too. Just reading through several of the posts in this thread, it floors me how serious people are taking this. I could see discussing something as an "exploit" (and no I'm not looking to discuss symatics of what an exploit is or how the developers intended things to work etc) from a competitive stand point in relation to other formats like GvG but if you can't go into Ra with some sort of humility and an expection to lose/re-enter; regardless of circumstance, than you may want to be looking at a different (more competitive?) aspect of the game.

elk

You know how inconsiderate you sound?

If you do not have some sort of humility to see that not only you and your friends want to have some lawlz and fun in the game, then what are you preaching other people for not tolerating? in which case, like I said before in earlier posts, non-synchers have been tolerating synchers for too long. what do you think non-synchers have been doing all this while? resign and let the cheaters win?

Just because you wanted some lawlz at other players' expanse, they just need to make way cos you don't play often and when you login, you should be treated special? sheesh.

Jaximus:
Better still remove RA and all points and title earn there, wipe clean.

Raul the Rampant · Oct 14, 2008, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

best i can tell the team order goes team a fills in order of entry and then team b. a simple alternation in the entrance sequence would relieve the issue. team a player 1-> team b player 1. so then people that hit enter + cancel + reenter at the same time would go opposite teams with the alternation.

Well, do this and then you'll just have groups of 8 attempting to sync instead of teams of 4, resulting in two synced teams of four (or two teams of three synced, four of two, etc). A slight inconvenience maybe, but not really a solution by itself. It would fit within my earlier suggestion, though:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

Or you could change the queue order every time, but that still leaves the possibility that two people who know each other end up on the same team.

Have, say, 16 (for the sake of argument) different queue combinations in place, then simply have each district select a queue order at random each time the timer resets. This would make the selection unpredictable and sufficiently difficult to sync intentionally. Also I don't think the coding for this would be all that difficult, nor would it slow the matchmaking process down noticeably.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

Better still remove RA and all points and title earn there, wipe clean.

Maybe you did a poor job of being sarcastic there, but if elk is being inconsiderate you would be, too, by that logic (at least towards everyone who got some title there legitimately). The type of syncing described in the post you quoted is not the kind you're attempting to eliminate (if that description is accurate) since the builds are synergized; it is no different from a team of complete strangers with builds that don't synergize, save for the fact that they're not complete strangers. If you do consider that syncing then you must also advocate not allowing people who RA every day to be on a team with someone else who does RA every day, as there is a chance that they have met before and gotten to know each other some. Also, that would qualify as bitter.

pumpkin pie · Oct 15, 2008, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Raul the Rampant

I have many points from playing RA when there's no synching problem. many points that I would give it up if it means getting rid of synchers in RA.

You obviously did not read all my suggestions of how to make RA better.

Lord Sojar · Oct 15, 2008, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

You obviously did not read all my suggestions of how to make RA better.

Reverend Dr · Oct 15, 2008, 05:34 AM // 05:34

RA is still going to be RA no matter what they do. It is the only PvP arena where you can push button and receive pvp. Wipe glad points from it. RA will still exist, the glad point farmers are just going to whine because it is 'too hard' for them to move on to TA and they don't want to adjust, but the usual people playing RA for random arenas are going to stay.

Raul the Rampant · Oct 15, 2008, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

Raul the Rampant

I have many points from playing RA when there's no synching problem. many points that I would give it up if it means getting rid of synchers in RA.

You obviously did not read all my suggestions of how to make RA better.

I have read all your posts here, but no, you've barely made a single decent or plausible suggestion of yet (in this thread or the ones in Sardelac), just repeatedly screamed that it's an exploit and that it must be stopped (usually using CAPS LOCK and bold words in place of actual evidence).

The closest you've come is here (and it almost got lost in that fragmented rant over some cloud of ambiguity... lucky for you I toughed it out):

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

Instead of picking the first 4 in each line, pick alternate in the lines, the alternate is also random, meaning pick player 1 from line 1, player 3 from line 2, player 6 from line 3, generate a random numbers to pick ever 30 seconds (the waiting time) the next time the system would pick player 2 from line 2, player 1 from line 3 et cetera. But never first 4 in any line, never match all first in all lines. Also don't have a set timing where match starts ie this one: After a short waiting period (with intervals of 30 seconds) make it differs 20 30 40 50 seconds wait period.

If you have actually read my posts you'd notice that I agreed to a loosely related concept a mere 9 posts below the one I just quoted from you.

As for your latest 'suggestion,' many people have lots of glad points earned in RA that they got without syncing. Problem is people also TA and those glad points are identical in the title track; anet would not have the means to determine which ones were earned where (much as they couldn't retroactively give points for streaks of 5 when they changed how glads were earned). Therefore forfeiting glad points would have to be an all or nothing proposition, and that (meaning forfeiting all) simply will not happen at this stage in the game's progression. It would not be fair to penalize the people who actually earned their titles correctly in the more difficult arena simply because you feel you are disadvantaged in what is essentially the minor-league version.

Removing all future glad points from RA (as Reverend Dr been suggesting since way back on page 2) would probably solve the syncing problem, but, as I said earlier (not that you bothered to read it), I believe that this would simply cause RA to shrivel into nothingness as the majority of the player base would move to TA where the rewards are; others may not agree with that assessment and that's fine. I do think something along the lines of multiple simultaneous queue systems may be an effective compromise should any action be taken, though, so I hope this particular point is moot.

Also, still waiting on some information from the 'study' you mentioned on page 2 of this thread that is being done on this...

Chocobo1 · Oct 15, 2008, 07:31 AM // 07:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

when people present you with facts you look it up, i am sure you are using a computer to type that word Proof? And must have a web browser and can visit a website call http://www.google.com/ which is a search engine

but if you like spoon feeding: it is called Ludology

Chocobo1 - who sync.

Let me ask you this:
What do you do when you do not get to into a group with the people that you wanted to sync with?

be honest, which one do you do?
1) leave
2) leave after finishing the first game even if your group has won leaving them with 3 players and most players get frustrated after that and leave?
3) /resign
4) charges into the opponent and die when the group won't die fast so you can leave?

Havent read the rest of the thread yet, just up to here. I do number 2 (lols bad joke). Eh a lot of times in RA people leave after the first round, I've barely ever see a chain reaction forming out of that. Why would it matter if one person leaves, if you go back to town you are still just going to get another random team I don't see why you would leave a 3/4 team in RA.

pumpkin pie · Oct 15, 2008, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Raul the Rampant,

Save your breath, what I am trying to say is: I made an effort to voice my opinion hoping Arena Net will do something about it, and giving my ideas as a non-programmer. If they are not applicable, fine, don't use it, but do something about it.

I am not interested in arguing with you about game programming or who has the best idea how to change RA. If you have the best idea, I suggest you go over to Sardelac Sanitarium.

I also would have no trouble giving up my gladiator points, that's how much synchers annoy me, so much that I's give up something I play over a year for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocobo1

Havent read the rest of the thread yet, just up to here. I do number 2 (lols bad joke). Eh a lot of times in RA people leave after the first round, I've barely ever see a chain reaction forming out of that. Why would it matter if one person leaves, if you go back to town you are still just going to get another random team I don't see why you would leave a 3/4 team in RA.

That is because you are alway the first one to leave, what happens next, you do not know. Please also keep in mind that winning 1X in random arena gives you nothing, you need consecutive to gain points, but most players who had one other players left will 80% of the time leave, right after the first player leaves. 100% of time everyone will leave if the syncher who left was a Monk. In the scenario that one person left follow by another, and when you only have 2 other players left in a team, the third one will 99% leave. Except me most the time, because that still count as 1 win to me, which most players don't take into consideration, that if they restart, one have to count from 0 win again. If I stayed, I get 1 win.

So I stay with 1 win, joins up with another random team, while you go on, do your little fun lawlz synching, come game 10, I meet with your sync group on the opposite end and gets wipe out. That must be some win for you ey.

Now I ask you, if the scenario in the second paragraph is true, can you give me back my time lost there? Can you? I am not talking about time spending playing 9 RA battle, I am talking about time spend until you get a 9 consecutive wins, you do know how long that takes, don't you, that is why you sync. so, question: Can you give me back my lost time just cos you want to save yourself the time and trouble and have a little lawlz. Can you?

I am not claiming that I would 100% win the 10th battle, but knowing that you lost not because the random players you team up with makes a bad team, but you lost because the other team have an edge over your team, they synced, do you know how frustrating that can get?

You know the sport that one always sees in Medieval English Movie? a sport called Jousting. If you are in that sport and the requirement for the Lance that everyone use is, say 3.3 meters in length. You think its fair to go into that sport with a 3.5 meters long Lance?

Raul the Rampant · Oct 15, 2008, 08:03 AM // 08:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

I made an effort to voice my opinion hoping Arena Net will do something about it, and giving my ideas as a non-programmer. If they are not applicable, fine, don't use it, but do something about it.

Have I not done exactly this myself? I offered my opinion right away and have since offered a few ideas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

I am not interested in arguing with you about game programming or who has the best idea how to change RA. If you have the best idea, I suggest you go over to Sardelac Sanitarium.

See, now I know you don't actually read my posts since I mentioned Sardelac in the one I made just above this. I'm semi surprised this hasn't already been moved seeing the direction it's been heading for some time now come to mention it. At this point it probably belongs there.

But really, I'm not trying to get into a flame war with you or anyone else. We know you think it's a exploit and the rest of us are agreeing or disagreeing as we see fit... repeating "IT'S AND EXPLOIT!!!11!!1!1" and "NO IT'S NOT!!!!!11!1! will simply lead to a lock. Since we clearly cannot come to a unanimous consensus as to whether or not this actually, the natural progression of things would take us to thoughts on potential changes to please everyone. If we don't progress like this the thread dies or gets flamed into a lock and nothing will come of it (not that anything will from this either, but there's always the chance).

But anyways, more new content:

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

That is because you are alway the first one to leave, what happens next, you do not know.

Generalizations FTW!

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

but most players who had one other players left will 80% of the time leave, right after the first player leaves. 100% of time everyone will leave if the syncher who left was a Monk.

No, only the people who should be in TA do this. Those who actually enjoy the random aspect of RA appreciate monks but do not require them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

You know the sport that one always sees in Medieval English Movie? a sport called Jousting. If you are in that sport and the requirement for the Lance that everyone use is, say 3.3 meters in length. You think its a fair to go into that sport with a 3.5 meters long Lance?

Even if the lances are exactly the same length that does not take into account the fact that not everyone's arms are exactly the same length. Say the guy with a 3.3 meter lance has an arm that's .7 meters long and the guy with the 3.5 meter lance has a .5 meter long arm? Suddenly things are equal again. You have to consider both the equipment and the people using it. And before I get blamed for going off topic, there is a point in this. The beauty of guild wars is that everyone's lances are exactly the same. We all get to use the same skills and get access to the same equipment; no single character is inherently any better than the rest. The difference is in how we use them. To finish tying this together and maybe clarify some:

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

I am not claiming that I would 100% win the 10th battle, but knowing that you lost not because the random players you team up with makes a bad team, but you lost because the other team have an edge over your team, they synced, do you know how frustrating that can get?

Would it not also be every bit as frustrating as a new player to get demolished in RA by a group of 4 experienced RA-ers who were put on the same team without syncing? Both teams have access to the same skill sets and equipment as the other (the lances from above). In this case the new player might be on a decent team, but they lost to a more experienced, more skilled (longer armed, if you will) group of random players. Yet we consider this to be a fair advantage given to the more experienced and skilled players (even though the lances are the same length the experienced ones reach farther, giving them an advantage). Do we need to make the queue system also take into account the pvp experience of all the players hitting enter as well? Or implement some sort of handicap system?

On the other side, that same sync team that beats a bad random team can lose to a decent random team. Synced teams are only as good as the players operating the synced characters. Not every synced team destroys every random team it faces. Not only that, but synced teams lose to other synced teams. It's the nature of the beast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

No, Raul The Rampant,

I don't want to read your posts, because I am not getting into that area of debate with you, I don't have the qualification or knowledge as a game designer to do that, nor do I want to. I am here as an annoyed by synchers player who wish they can play RA again like they did before.

Acting like a spoiled brat and pouting because people don't agree with you won't accomplish much. Be constructive and have an open mind.

pumpkin pie · Oct 15, 2008, 08:08 AM // 08:08

No, Raul The Rampant,

I don't want to read your posts, because I am not getting into that area of debate with you, I don't have the qualification or knowledge as a game designer to do that, nor do I want to. I am here as an annoyed by synchers player who wish they can play RA again like they did before.

Shasgaliel · Oct 15, 2008, 08:38 AM // 08:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

Since we clearly cannot come to a unanimous consensus as to whether or not this actually, the natural progression of things would take us to thoughts on potential changes to please everyone.

There is no possibility of having unanimous consensus here. People in general will almost never admit that they cheat or use exploits to gain advantage so they will argue regardless how obvious the facts are. Same is true for the other side, people will try every even the most ridiculous argument to prove their position because they do not like what others do. When there is nothing more to say then the flames start.

The problem is that if many people do something it becomes generally acceptable regardless if it is an exploit or not. Only a few players are really against syncing here. It's just too popular now. Anet did not do anything so far so the community thought it is ok for them to continue and more people start doing it since they do not want to be worse. If Anet had reacted when they received first complains then there would be no such discussions anymore. But they did nothing so the people thought that it must be ok to continue.

I still remember that I was afraid that my account will be banned for using wall warping tactics in the bonus of dunes of despair long time ago (after finding on wiki that it is an exploit). Nothing happened of course. So now I keep using it... Similar is here but the difference is that syncing harms people who do not do it and obviously they do not like it. In this case some solutions are needed or people will start leaving RA and possibly GW.

I do not see any good solution to change RA in a way to prevent sync. There were many posts in Sardelac but sooner or later they were put down (not only by syncers).

In my opinion the easiest solution would be to change the description of Random Arenas to:
"if you are not able to sync then you will be placed in the random group"
or something like that and publish syncing instructions on the official wiki....

Another one would be to remove gladiator points from RA. Syncing will be reduced but it will not disappear because people will still sync to have better chances of obtaining B faction.

Anyway I am not playing RA anymore. I just feel pity for the ones who still do...

Lord Sojar · Oct 15, 2008, 08:42 AM // 08:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shasgaliel

People in general will almost never admit that they cheat or use exploits to gain advantage

I cheat and exploit whenever possible. It is fun.

Daenara · Oct 15, 2008, 09:13 AM // 09:13

I sync with my husband. We have different guild tags. It's fun, and I'll do it again. I don't do it for the glad points, nor for the faction, but just because I like playing on the same team as him. I know I could do TA/HA/GVG with him, but we all know the challenges finding 8 people etc.
Is it against the rules? No. Is it unfair? Maybe..

fireflyry · Oct 15, 2008, 09:57 AM // 09:57

I honestly find it totally laughable people would bother with such an exploit.

The GW community gets greedier and more deplorable by the month.

In saying it's for a title.

Personally I couldn't care less yet I sympathize with those that attained such a goal honestly.I imagine Anet will pick up on it at some point.

RA is a scrub-fest, pure and simple.The title was always a joke and tbh I'm surprised people even care although I agree it should be addressed and fixed.

R a n d o m arena.